Paul Murphy Challenges Minister Over Donations, Van and Postering
Paul Murphy questioned the minister about donations, postering and the commercial use of a van in the 2016 and 2020 election campaigns, arguing the sums should have been declared. He accused the minister of telling untruths and said the combined amounts looked to exceed the €1,500 annual reporting threshold.
Key dispute over donations
Paul Murphy pressed the minister on whether assistance from Michael Stone - including postering, the use of a van and a ticket sale - constituted donations to Fianna Gael or to individual campaigns. He argued that the items cited should be treated as donations and declared under the rules on party donations.
Breakdown of amounts and attribution
The amounts discussed in the exchange included figures of €972, €434.20 and €334, which Murphy aggregated to a total of €1,740 for 2020. The minister said some items were attributed to Fianna Gael Dublin Central, others to the Fianna Gael national organisation, and one element was a corporate donation from the Designer Group for commercial use of a van.
Minister's responses and distinction of sources
The minister replied that the figures came from different sources - personal contributions, commercial valuation of postering and a corporate donation - and that some personal items fell below the personal donation threshold. The minister also said a portion of the corporate van contribution would be refunded and insisted the items were attributed to party entities rather than to the deputy personally.
Reporting threshold and accounting concern
Murphy cited the legal rule that parties must declare donations in aggregate exceeding €1,500 in any one year and questioned why Michael Stone did not appear on the donation statement. He called the minister's explanations inconsistent and accused the minister of telling untruths that risked landing the party in difficulty.
Tense chamber exchange and procedural dispute
The exchange ended with a heated procedural clash, Murphy accusing the minister of "talking down the clock" and repeatedly seeking to speak as the minister defended his responses. The minister was also reminded he is the minister responsible for SIPPO in the course of the questioning.
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Deputy Paul Murphy and Deputy Mick Farrie are sharing with them. Did Michael Stone help with postering in the 2019 local and European elections? No. Okay, so Fianna Gael was involved in an election. This is a guy who makes donations in the form of putting up posters for Fianna Gael in the 2016 and 2020 general election, but he doesn't do 2019. So it only seems to get involved when your elections are involved, when you're standing for elections, is that right? As I said, the two election campaigns that I'm revising my election expenses for are for 2016 and 2020. If any further change needs to be made at this point, it would be. Okay, so they look like donations to you as opposed to Fianna Gael. But just to confirm, you are saying that the donation of the assistance of the Labour worth €972 in 2020 and the vans worth €434 in 2020, they're with donations to Fianna Gael as opposed to you. Those, again, the donations that you're referring to are the cost of labour and the use of a van, and they were all attributed to Fianna Gael, Dublin Central, not to me. And you also said last week that you sold tickets with a donation value of €334 in 2020 to Michael Stone. Is that right? Yes, I believe. I did indicate that that was the case. And that would also be a donation to Fianna Gael North Central, presumably? No, that would have been to the Fianna Gael National Organisation. Okay, but it's a donation to Fianna Gael? It would have been a donation, as I said, to the National Party. Okay, so collectively then, in 2020, we have a donation of €972, €434, 20 cent, and €334 in 2020. That's a total of €1,740 in that year. Is that accurate? But we're talking about different things here. So firstly, one went to Fianna Gael, Dublin Central, the other was to Fianna Gael nationally. That doesn't matter in terms of legislation, Minister. I'm not aware of what the algorithm is, but I'm sure you're correct. But they went to different party entities. And as I said, from the very, very beginning, one was the sale of a ticket. The other was the commercial value that we are attributing to posturing and the use of the law. I think this is the problem. When you begin to tell untruths, you begin to trip yourself up, Minister. So it doesn't make any difference where the donations went. If there were donations to Fianna Gael, they fall under the rules of donations to a party. So you're presumably aware that if a party receives donations or donations in aggregate exceeding €1500 in any one year, they need to declare that. Are you aware of that rule? But my understanding here is that the money that you're referring to and the value of it is below a personal threshold. So, and as I said, I go back to the point I made. One was to Fianna Gael, Dublin Central, and the other were tickets that went to Fianna Gael. That doesn't matter, Minister. You are known to be quite good with figures. €972, €434.20, €334.00. That is a total of €1,740, when the maximum that can be accepted without being accounted for in the donation statement is €1500. And yet, Michael Stone does not appear on the donation statement. So you're just landing Fianna Gael in it with your series of untruths. But the 430 figure that you're referring to is the commercial use of a corporate van. Correct. So what you were doing is you're adding together two personal figures and a corporate figure. They're different. The two personal figures refer to the sale of tickets that I brought forward myself and the commercial value of postering that Mr Stone himself paid for. The other figure that you're referring to is a corporate donation that came from the designer group. That corporate donation being the commercial value of a van. Michael Stone is clear. Michael Stone is clear. No, no. Just to conclude. I arranged to supply. I pay. So not only are we talking about funding that went to two different entities, Dublin Central, Fine Gael and Fine Gael nationally, we're also talking about them being paid from two different people. Or two different entities. It makes no difference whatsoever, the two arms of Fine Gael. You are the minister responsible for SIPPO. You're meant to know this stuff. Finally, in 2017 you became aware of the issue around the use of the van in 2016. Why on earth then did you proceed and do the same thing all over again in 2020? No, but you can't, Deputy, make a kind of repeat assertions and assume that they have the meaning of truth here. As I said to you a moment ago, the three different figures that you've referred to, the figure of a 430-year-old, which is the commercial use of a van, that was from a corporate donation from the Dublin designer group, a portion of which will be refunded. The other two figures that you're referring to are personal figures. Those personal figures are under donation threshold. I think it's important just to be clear about those points. Minister, you're talking down the clock. I want to speak. You're talking down the clock and I wish to speak. Minister, I want to speak. I'm sorry. I want to speak. You're talking. I want to speak. I want to speak.
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