Paul Murphy questions PUP closure as business supports continue

Thanks a lot. You spoke about the fact that business supports are still available until the end of the year. Businesses can go and apply for those supports until the end of December. What explains the contrast between that and the PUP? I mean, it's obviously fair enough that a nightclub owner isn't expected to go and do something else if they can't have a nightclub. But why is that different in the case of, for example, a DJ or someone else who works on a nightclub? Why is it expected that, oh, they should just go and work in a cafe or whatever? Why has PUP been closed to them? And then despite the fact that the sectors, say, certainly the nightclub sector, taxi drivers, others, are going to be affected by the latest actions. There may be more actions coming. Those people who perhaps were on the PUP previously, came off it, now are not able to go back on it. What accounts for the very different approach to the supports for business and supports for workers? Thank you, Deputy. I think there are a couple of points in relation to the PUP, which has been introduced at a very short order last year and has been very successful, I think, in helping to support incomes. But what we have seen is very good transitions from the PUP back to employment. And we know that something like 60 per cent of those who have come off the PUP have gone back to their existing employer, previous employer. And 12 per cent of the state in the same sector and 20 per cent have gone on to other areas. But just maybe to the point that is worth bearing in mind, particularly for taxi drivers and others, many of those, and there are 74,000 who are still on the PUP and may not have come off in the last couple of weeks, they can continue to earn up to 960 over an eight-week period. So particularly for some of those in the sectors that you have mentioned, they may not have come off the PUP and they can continue to earn. So we may well see that the numbers may not decrease as quickly as over the previous period. So, and then for small business, I would say from any business that is operating a small business, the measures that we have, for example, for self-employed, for example, such as MFI, microfinance Ireland loans and short-term liquidity, that those measures are available to sole traders or individuals who maybe have a small business and are impacted. And there is an interest, zero interest available there. They can also engage, and we would encourage them to be engaged directly with the local enterprise offices of our department, which are in every region. Indeed, many of them have, particularly in the entertainment sector. So we certainly have a range of measures which are available. And I think then also, as I mentioned, the Department of Culture Arts and Tourism have existing schemes for live performers and others. Again, I don't know the detail of those, but I would envision that there are probably measures there which may be helpful. So, but in relation to the policy issues, I think they're probably more appropriate for the Minister and colleagues from the Department of Social Protection. Thanks, Deputy. Thanks. I mean, yeah, just bluntly then to go back to the question, I mean, do you know what is the rationale for why PUP has been closed off, whereas the business supports continue? And to be clear, I'm not arguing against the business supports, but I am suggesting that there is a contradiction there, particularly at the time when sectors of the economy are beginning to be closed down. And so fair enough, you say some taxi drivers will never have come off the PUP, but some of them will have, and they can't go back on now. That's the case that the PUP has been closed off and is being significantly reduced. It's down to 203 or 250, and they simply cannot go back on that now because the scheme has been closed, whereas other schemes continue. That does seem to me to be a contradiction. Definitely. So for some of those, for example, the EWSS, like there are glide paths set out for the various schemes. And as I said, it's always going to be difficult to have a, to synchronise those, but essentially in a situation where there are job openings and there are opportunities. And we see it, for example, in the, in the retail sector, the retail and wholesale sector, which is now employment is above to 2019 levels. And we still have, and we have shortages in that sector. And we know that there probably will be demand over the Christmas period for somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people. And yet we have significant numbers still on the PUP. So I think there is a, you know, 12,000 as of 2 November, from the wholesale retail sector, who are, who remain on the PUP. And as I mentioned, there are the options there in terms of one, we need to work with the businesses to ensure that they can take back the people that were previous employees. And as I said, 60% are going back to their previous employer or to stay in the sector, which is 12%, or to move to other sectors where there were other opportunities. So there are different glide paths and there are different closure dates. And it is a sense of, and I think that particularly in terms of the EWSS, which is an employment support will continue until the end of March next year. And again, with nearly 300,000 or 288,000 in October on that, that is a key support, both for the employers and for individuals in terms of getting back to work. But that point in relation to those who have come off PUP over the last couple of weeks, and I think definitely this is the key point, is what has been opened up, we are trying to maintain what has been opened. So the jobs that were restored and people that went back to work in August, September, October, November at that level of activity, it is to try to sustain those jobs over the coming weeks and months. We may not get the uplift that might have occurred previously in 2017 or 2018, or even 2019 in terms of around the Christmas period. But certainly what many operators seem to be talking about is in terms of trying to levelling out that so that there is continued business into January and February. And as I mentioned that the prospect of having 488, going back to those types of numbers that we had in spring of this year, I think is something which is weighing heavily on us all. And we want to ensure that we can keep the economy open and job opportunities there. But certainly there are significant job openings and opportunities right across the economy. Thanks. You