Brian Stanley Demands Answers on Drone Origins, Committee Scope

Just to welcome the Minister and her officials to the meeting. It's your first visit, I think, who has been appointed, and congratulations. Yeah, just to concur with what was said, it's an issue I raised and some other traces, but at the very first meeting of the committee here, the remit of the committee, and I think, you know, people, I think members of the committee, you know, from opposition, whether we're independents or whether we're, you know, belong to the parties, you know, I think everybody's at one in terms of, you know, protecting the integrity of the committee, and wanted to expand it and have a, you know, having a realistic role, you know, for good purposes. I just want to say that to you and just, you know, we'll ask you to use your influence as a member of Cabinet to ensure that that happens. It's not acceptable that a committee is called National Security and Defence Committee, and one part of that is sawed off, you know, the two go together. And in other democracies, you know, you will note that that's how it works. I want to ask you about the drones and the investigations into that. Now, from what we have learned from having members, senior members of Defence Forces in here, the four drones were flying underneath the flight path. It took a long time for us to get to this, to find out this. Underneath the flight path, at a low level, above the Navy ship. The decision was taken not to take him down, and that may be for good reason, and that's a military decision, that's not our decision. But it's been said already that Dublin Airport traffic control was not notified, and that's a matter, and I think you have clarified that that's under investigation, and looking at how that can be improved, and I accept that, okay? But in relation to the drones, has, at this point, are you aware, you know, in terms of the four drones, were they of Russian origin, or very likely of Russian origin, or may they actually be belonging to, can you rule out that they may belong to another state? I can't give you an answer on that. That's something that's been investigated by the Gardaí at the moment, but I wouldn't be able to answer that for you. So, because one of the things, you know, and I understand that they may be Russian, because, you know, there is, you know, there's various different games going on, but, you know, we all know in this room that the biggest, the biggest casualty and more, along with, unfortunately, the thousands of unfortunate young working-class people from Russia and Ukraine that are losing their lives in this awful war caused by the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. But we also know that the other casualty is the truth. I think we'll all accept that, right? And I don't know, and none of us here know about the invasion of Ukraine, but I'm just interested to know that, you know, we're three months following this serious incident which could have had serious consequences in terms of loss of life or injury and, you know, on a catastrophic scale underneath a very busy flight path. And at this point, as National Security Committee, and you as Minister for Defence, we're not able to say that these are Russian drones. I take that from your answer. Is that correct? You're not allowed to rule out. Are you allowed to rule out to the Committee that these men, that these could have been belonging to another state? So I don't think it would be helpful for me to speculate when I don't know because the Guard investigation is underway and obviously this is a matter for the Guardie to determine and then to say whether or not they want to actually release that information. But, you know, there's a possibility that it could have been drones from Russia. There's a possibility that they could have been more localised. There's a possibility that they could have been from other actors. But I don't want to mislead the chamber when this is something that's the Guardie you're investigating. It could have been belonging to the intelligence services of another state. Because the puzzle is that a lot of people are pondering the fact, you know, how it would have served Russian interests, you know, to carry out an operation like that. And it may have served Russian interests. They obviously have their own mind on these things. But I think there's a bit of a puzzle around that and may actually leave the question a bit open as to the origin of these drones. Has it been ruled out that, you know, we were told at the committee here that there was a Russian, as I recall it, a commercial Russian ship somewhere in Irish waters around this time? Has it been determined, was it commercial or military ships belonging to other states in Irish waters at that time, and particularly in the Irish Sea? I'm not aware that that information has been provided. My understanding is that there were no malign actors within the sea area at the time. But, again, that would be a matter for the Guardie or the Defence Forces. Which would be receiving briefings on this from the Defence Forces. But has the Defence Forces clarified to you that there were ships belonging to other states in Irish waters at that time, military or commercial? So any security information that I'd be provided to by the Defence Forces, I wouldn't be in a position to repeat here. But what I can say is that my understanding is that there were no malign actors in the sea area. So you're not held, Rulo, at this point, that the origin of these may have been in another state. Can you just move on to NATO for a minute? NATO, obviously, you know, I think we can agree. That has been damaged and has been trampled over. And, you know, the word order has changed. And I think we can accept that for the worst. You know, that has changed for the worst. But Ireland has... Sorry, the UN. Sorry. I wrote down notes very quickly. I'm talking about the UN. OK. You know, that the UN has been trampled on and undermined. And in terms of, you know, it has kind of held a centre for 70 years or so in terms of, you know, in terms of multilateralism and in terms of, you know, a forum where matters can be sorted out without necessarily full-scale war. But with the heart of mind, is really the best approach at this point that, you know, or do you feel that Ireland should play a role in re-establishing the primacy of the United Nations? Well, can I just agree with you in terms of the UN? I think it is still one of the most important global fora that we have to deal with significant challenges and issues, be it from a humanitarian perspective, be it the conflicts we're discussing here today or any other issues. I do think it needs to be reformed. And I think there's a general acceptance from within the UN and from the member states as well that there needs to be reform. There was an attempt made in recent years to do that, and I don't believe it was successful. So I think our focus needs to be on a number of different strands, be it the Security Council or otherwise, how do we ourselves play our part in that regard? We're obviously putting a bid forward for our seats on the UN Security Council in the next year. And we have always used that as an opportunity, not just to focus on the issues themselves, but I believe it's an opportunity for us to use our voice in terms of what reform might look like from within as well. I had a question around NATO, but I'll hold that to laughter. But just on the UN for a second, that in terms of, so we can agree on that, and I think the UN is very, very important, and I think most people would occur with that in terms of trying to re-establish that. But is Ireland now, at this point, is this state actively engaging with other countries that are somewhat like-minded, non-aligned or neutral at UN level, you know, diplomatically and in terms of interactions between the UN government and ministers like ourselves? Is there actually a strategy from the government to try and enhance the credibility and the role of the United Nations and to try and, you know, get that centre back together again, for want of a better term, to ensure that, you know, because I think we can agree, you know, the Board of Peace, that's one effort. Russia has its own. They're at for another end, trying to pull the middle of the United Nations, trying to sideline the United Nations. It's a Board of Peace, you know, you have forums like this being established, which the UN would have been, that would have been the body that would have looked, would have dealt with all these things up to a short time ago. But I think, you know, the question is, is that, is there a strategy there and is the government actively working with other states that may be somewhat like-minded with us as they say it, to re-establish that privacy? So there's no specific strategy that we have with other countries, but what we are doing and have consistently done is highlight the need for reform but also highlight the benefits of the UN as a body more generally and particularly when it comes to humanitarian assistance and support. As a country, we've probably been to the fore, so where the US in particular, unfortunately, and other countries have pulled back in providing huge funding and support for UN agencies, Ireland has not just increased our funding, but we've ensured that we've paid up and on time and we've encouraged other member states to do that. And during the presidency, the intention under the human rights, the human rights pillar of our overall priorities would be that we continue to focus on the role of the UN, the role of humanitarian bodies within that and to try and bring on board and to bring other countries with us where perhaps they have been pulling away. But I think Ireland in itself, while our voice is strong, we can't do it on our own. Do you think that it's time for this state now? Because we do have a proud record, the non-proliferation treaty, the work of Ireland back in the 50s and 60s when we're in a much poorer state. Do you think that it's time now to actually get involved in the strategy of other states to do that? Well, I think and I hope if we are successful in our bid for a seat that it will allow us an opportunity from within to be able to make greater progress and that would include on reforms that have already been planned. So it's not that they're not. There is a lot of discussion happening at every level within the UN on the need for reform and we certainly want to be active and we certainly play our part. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.