Mattie McGrath: Defends Right to In-Person Planning Meetings

Gourmahaigod, Gourmahaigod, Gourmahaigod, Caaeilach and apologies, I almost missed it, I was going for some sustenance, a cup of tea. Yes, I referred to this earlier and we in the Rural Independence have put on the motion that shall hold the public meetings except in such serious and limited circumstances as may be prescribed by law, such as an emergency period where the holding of such a meeting is not reasonably practicable, in which case a planning authority shall make auxiliary arrangements for effective and all embracing public consultation as it regards appropriate and invite submissions in writing to members of the public in relation to the proposed development plan, and that's in the names of all our rural independents. Minister, this is very important, I think it's a fundamental part of our democratic process and our engagement with the public in planning matters. And I referred earlier to the alienation of people, and they are being alienated slowly by big business and by government's inability to embrace them and engage with them, and it has served us well over the decades, since our inception of our state, and you know, now to see this, okay, we're in, as you said, this COVID situation, and we have allowed for that in our amendment, and we feel that we should have, people must have the right to have a public meeting, because there's no comparison for a public meeting. I'm talking about a civil court, public meeting, I was at many of them, I chaired a good few of them, many of them are held in community halls, and chaired by the chairperson and community council, or oftentimes in Sogat Parosha, or they're in them are seen. And well, great decorum, and the planners come and engage and talk and listen, and they might be not spark, fly, emotional people, but in general they're held with decorum in a proper, dignified way. And people can get an understanding and a feeling for the plan, and a feeling that they have ownership of the plan when they, you know, if there's an outcome, and they make, you know, they get, they can ask questions, they get them answers. Some will be satisfied, some will, you know, go away and think further, and maybe engage, you know, consultants or whatever. But in general, it's a very productive, and a very good civic thing to do, and we should be encouraging more of that with younger people as well. And younger people have no problem at all with Zoom or remote meetings, yes, but certainly people my age, and I'm Shaskadoe, and people that are much older are not maybe competent to do these meetings online. And anyway, as other deputies referred to earlier, it's not easy to do them online. It's not the same as being able to have a physical encounter and engagement and, you know, a body language and whatever. You're there looking into a computer or whatever, and you might be able to get in when you want to, and you might be inhibited that way. But many people then, in where I live, in Tipperary, there's about, I think, 24,000 homes who cannot get, they have no proper decent broadband service. And that's, they're fundamentally then denied access to this proper public consultation process. Denied completely. And, like, I, and it's not even only, and I was accused this morning of having an urban-rural divide with Dublin and the rest of the country. I was told by a Labour deputy, I don't know what part of Dublin he represents, and I believe him. He said that he has poor broadband, and he's part of Dublin, very poor broadband. And I see that probably this morning in and out from Bray, and halfway in, the covers completely goes with the mobile phone. And that's the same way as the last three or four months, so it's the black spot, obviously, in the middle of the city, not far out from RTE. So I'm making the point, all over the country, we have huge problems with connectivity with broadband. And even all the time to get a phone line, I'll get a phone line repaired with aircam. It's just a complete no-go area. So the public must be embraced, and we must honour our constitutional rights, and we can't bring in legislation like this just to simply say it's for COVID and, you know, it'll end. Legislation like this, I've seen very little legislation here repealed here 13 or 14 years. Very little legislation repealed. And, you know, I don't know about the COVID legislation and the review clause for November, whether that covers this or not, I'm not sure, maybe you might clarify, but I don't think it does. But I don't see much legislation being repealed. So it's vital that we encourage more participation for the public. We encourage more communities to come together. And we've seen communities that are fired in together in big development areas, and the plan, 20-40 plan, you want them all headed into the big areas. And it's often very hard to get a nucleus of a community. And people have to work very hard, the outliers and the inspiration of people to get together to try and have it. And I see estates as their own Tipperary town, going on now eight to nine years without lights. They hadn't footpaths, they hadn't proper sewage. And the danger of another one in Monad, and we're in Duke and Scalaghy, we had many of them. And we have Ed Finnan. And it's unfair for people who made the investment and bought a house. They didn't necessarily buy it. And now they can't get the estate taken in charge, and there's a problem with sewers and water and lights and everything else. And to try and get busy people, and if they want to come together and form a group, and have a say and an input. They can't. Since COVID came, they can't have meetings on site, they can't have anything. And we were making some progress, albeit very slow. Now it's all stalled. But in bigger areas, the biggest states, I'm talking about, there's a hundred houses. And a spink of light, a candle, matched like people they buy, back in the time where we hadn't light. Before the late, great Canon Hayes always said, light one candle is better than the course of the dark. These people are living in appalling conditions. Children out there, and so dangerous nowadays, you know, when you haven't a light in the estate, and cars going through, and there's chicanes that don't slow them down. But there's huge difficulties. And there are a lot of those estates, and temporary county council, for some reason or other, didn't get a bob in the last round of money to complete those estates. They're dealing with bonds and more of them, and developers have gone west, they've gone to wherever, America or Canada or wherever. So it's not fair to treat people like that, who put their hands in their pockets, got mortgages, and bought their homes, in good faith. And there was planning granted, but the planning enforcement was lax and wasn't there. And let these many cowboy builders just do what they like. Do what they like. And I addressed that earlier about the shooting range that people are afraid of their life in my area, and there's no planning. They never had planning, built without planning. Got a license somehow for the power of justice they shouldn't have got. That's been revoked now by Inspector Allen, and indeed Superintendent Whelan. And the courts have decided, and prosecuted, and gave community service. Yes? But you seem to be straying from the purpose of the environment. No, I'm talking about embracing the community. The citizens. Sean's citizens, and Mary's citizens. The people day boys are gone 200 and something odd years since the Orange Order now, instead of them. Sorry, who's gone? The people day boys are gone over 200 years since the Orange Order now. Don't you go talk about the Orange Order now, or you'll be in brand standard utility. So, say nothing. Keep it doing bail. I respect you as a chair, but I'm saying on that issue, the Orange Order. If you respect the chair, you will respect the standing order of the House to stick to the topic. Yes, I'll be right back. I'll be right back. I'll be right back. Yes, I'll be right back. Yes, but it's very relevant for Sean's citizens, and Mary's citizens. I'm not saying whether it's relevant or not. I'm saying stick to the topic of the amendment. It's very relevant to enforcement. No, it's very relevant. This isn't to do with enforcement. This is to do with a public meeting. The amendment is for public meetings, and it'll all lead to enforcement at some stage, if it's enacted, and the people haven't had their say in it, and they make objections, and there will be enforcement processes possibly come through if it's deemed to be illegible. So, it's all relevant, I think, actually, but I'll be guided by you. So, I'm asking, and I respect the chair, but if we keep it into a republic here, we won't go up near the north at all. We look after things here. We have enough to look after here. It's not relevant either. Sorry? That's not relevant either. No, but you should. There's one of the waffle away there. Could you introduce that topic of the orange order? I don't think there are any lodges down in the south. There are one or two in Camden. The people days disappeared and became the orange order. Historical fact. That's all I was telling you. Thanks for the history lesson. Yes, exactly. I'm thinking of the bill. I'm thinking of the legislation. It's nearly like an omnibus bill, the way I told you. You made a liquid of all sorts of it. You put in nice bits and bad bits, and hoping that the nice bits would encasellate and squash in the bad bits, and we wouldn't see it. And bring it in so late in the last days of the term before Christmas. I'm saying, that is shameful, and that is wrong. You'd be here railing against that if you were in opposition. And I haven't heard you railing in the last seven or eight years about items like this, and paying huge fines. So, look, you can't have it both ways. If you cut your cloth, you have to wear it. So, you're happy to be in government, and I wish you well, as I said, but do as I do, not do as I say. You want to do as I say, and not as I do. So, we have this amendment, and we're pushing this amendment, because I think it's a vital, vital, vital, vital part, that the public would be encouraged. Mulanigan and Oge Agus Tukisíth, Mulanigan and Dina Guleir Agus Tukisíth, they will come and they will embrace, but if they're going to be shut out from a democratic process, they're not going to be one bit happier. Why would they? Why would they? One bit happy. So, as I said, I will conclude at that, but we're pushing this amendment. We feel it's a reasonable amendment, and we're acceptable that it can happen for a pandemic, or something like this, but I want guarantees that, outside of that emergency situation, that the public process, and the public's access, and the public meetings must take place. Gourmet Gourmet Gourmet. Gourmet Gourmet Gourmet Gourmet.