Richard Boyd Barrett urges intervention for music lecturers

Minister Lawless, you're new in the job of the Ministry of Higher Education and I'm asking you to make an intervention on behalf of lecturers in the British and Irish Modern Music Institute, four of whom are here in the gallery tonight, all of whom were on the picket lines, I was with them today on the picket lines in Thomas Street, where they have been forced to take strike action and mount protest because of absolutely shameful treatment by BIM. Now BIM is a private company but it is most of its students, 500 of the students, 80% are effectively students of the Technological University of Dublin. TUD is funded to provide this course in commercial modern music the students, applied through the CAO, applied through the TUD, their degrees are, whatever the word is, you know, ratified, I'm sure that's not the right expression, by TUD but they're awarded by TUD. So TUD have outsourced this degree course to BIM but these workers have been treated shamefully. 53 of them, many of them are working there a decade or more, have been told to reapply for their own jobs. There's still as many students, all the work is still there, but BIM have decided to tell them to reapply for their own jobs and are proposing that there would be, most of them would become freelance when they were previously employed on conditions that are about 50% of what they were previously employed on and some of them would be given a yellow pack grade of lecturership, again about 50% of what they were paid before. This is a disgraceful way to treat these people who are delivering an important course in music, so we're asking for an intervention with the TUD to end this shameful treatment of these workers. Yes, thank you Ken Corla and at the outset just let me say I think it's my first opportunity to address the House since being appointed to this very important brief. It's an honour to hold, I look forward to working with the deputies opposite and all deputies in the House on the sector. I want to acknowledge as well as the first on his feet this evening Deputy Boyd Barrett, I know he's an interest in this area of higher education, innovation, research, the procedure of curiosity, the procedure of knowledge, and we've had debates on that in the past, so I look forward to continuing that engagement on this very, very important topic. On the situation at BIM, I want to thank the deputies for raising this, bringing it to the Chamber. I anticipated it would be ventilated through the door and I think it's welcome that that occurs. I want to welcome the workers here tonight and thank you for being here and I certainly am very sympathetic to your plight. I've been reading about the situation and I've been reading about media reports about the, as it's labeled, proposed restructuring and the industrial dispute that's flowed from that and I don't like what I read frankly and I am concerned about the situation and the impact upon staff and indeed the impact upon students. I suppose the difficulty that arises as the deputies are aware and as has been acknowledged in the outset is that BIM is a private company, so neither I nor any other Minister has any statutory role or powers to exercise in this matter and I do understand and I take the point that's been made that TU Dublin is engaged in collaborative provision with BIM to deliver a small number of programmes and the arrangement seems from what I'm told to include academic quality assurance and protection of learner arrangements but it is BIM acting as a private provider that appear to have responsibility for staffing, organisational structures and the working terms and conditions of staff. I looked at the BIM website and it declares that they are a private limited company because I have to give the CRO number and so forth so it's a private entity. I also note that it has operations across Europe and the UK, Berlin, Hamburg, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol are all listed as sites that it operates in around the UK and across Europe. And further it does not receive any funding from my department or from the state that I'm aware. It doesn't receive any funding from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. So issues pertaining to the governance of the terms and conditions of staff employed do not fall within the remit of my department. Now like any member of the House, notwithstanding that, I am concerned anytime there's a suggestion of redundancies, be it in BIM or be it in any other company or be it in any other organisation in the state. And I understand completely that the staff of BIM are worried by management proposals. BIM apparently are saying that its actions are in the best interest of the students in the organisation. I'm not in a place to assess that, the claims that are being made. It probably would be unhelpful for me to get into trying to arbitrate or adjudicate on the dispute. But my primary concern is for the students and staff based on what I've read, what's been reported and I have been following the issue. The reality, as I said, is that there are very few, if any, levers available to me as Minister to intervene in any industrial relations dispute, particularly one that involves a private sector organisation. I do strongly urge all parties and I think this probably is directed at the company more so than the the workers who understand have made their availability known to engage in the industrial relations machinery of the state. The Workplace Relations Commission stands ready to engage and I would encourage all parties to think seriously about where the path leads them next. I think that may be a very helpful avenue to pursue a resolution. I'm sure the deputies and the workers will also be interested to hear that the President of TU Dublin, I think today it was, has agreed to meet with the relevant union IFOOT, the Irish University, sorry, the Federation of University Teachers, to discuss the concerns. And I think that's a welcome development, you know, and I hope that will perhaps assist the dispute to move forward. And I think that's a helpful development. Minister, TUD Dublin is publicly funded. 80% of the students here are on courses provided by TU Dublin. TU Dublin gives €3 million in direct funding to BIM and the SUSE grants and other monies the students receive go to BIM but it's public money. You do have a responsibility, you can't wash your hands of this. Secondly, as the Minister for Higher Education, you have an interest in ensuring that every single teacher and lecturer working in higher education is treated properly and they are not subjected to a race to the bottom and to breach of their employment rights. The idea that you are forced to reapply for your own job and then will be so-called freelance, having been an employee for years, that's bogus self-employment. That is orchestrated, premeditated, bogus self-employment. It should not be allowed in degree courses that are being run by the TUD. So you cannot wash your hands of it. You have a responsibility, as do TU Dublin, to ensure, and by the way it's in the contract with BIM, that employment rights are respected. The BIM won't even meet what I thought and they refuse to go to the WRC. You need to crack the whip and intervene here on behalf of the workers. I absolutely share the Deputy's frustration and I know Deputy Covenger has called for me to make a statement. I think I've just made statements. If you listen back to what I've said and look at the transcript, I've shared your concerns and I've expressed very serious concerns myself for the position of staff and indeed for students. I'm not happy about what's pertaining, let's be very clear about that. There are limits and the deputies are well acquainted and familiar with industrial relation machinery and how these disputes work. When a private entity is in dispute with staff, there are very few levers that a minister can deploy. I know Deputy Covenger suggested a couple that maybe the state would take over the college or something. That's, with respect to it, perhaps a little bit extreme and perhaps not practical at this point in time. So in terms of the, I suppose, the realistic powers that may be available to any minister to unveil an industrial relation dispute involving a private company, they are limited. However, that's exactly what the industrial relation machinery of the state is there for. Now, I noticed actually, because I did have a look on the BIM website and went through some documentation that's publicly available, and they have what they call a terms and conditions sheet, which is a sort of contract with students. And within that, they actually cite their obligations to the students, which include the provision of courses, reasonable care and skill, etc. So I would just remind the college of that obligation that they have stated on a contractual basis that they have to their students. And I think perhaps that's something they might want to reflect on. I encourage both sides, I think I would have already declared their willingness to engage, and I would encourage both sides to engage in the industrial relations between the state. That's what it's there for. It can provide a solution to this issue. And I very much hope that it is brought to a head soon for the benefit of the staff and the students and all involved. Thank you, Ken Gorla. Thank you, deputies.