Holly Cairns: Demands CPO After Bessborough Permission

Ceann Comhairle, on behalf of the Social Democrats I'd like to extend our sincerest best wishes to Minister Patrick O'Donovan and his family. I know that everyone in this house wishes them a full and speedy recovery. Taoiseach, the decision by Uncommission Planola to grant planning permission for apartments at Bessborough is disgusting. It represents yet another failure, a betrayal by the state of the thousands of women and children who were incarcerated and abused there, and the 859 children and 19 women who remain unaccounted for, presumed dead. I've read Uncommission Planola's decision in detail and I really can't get over it. It says, and I quote, from the information available there is no evidence that there are unaccounted, unrecorded burials on the development site. And yet Taoiseach, the Commission Investigation into Mother and Baby Institutions report said it was highly likely that burials did take place on the grounds. And what happened after that conclusion was reached? Was there a comprehensive survey of the grounds? Was ground penetrating radar used? Were test excavations conducted? No. Instead, planning permission was granted to build apartments over the unmarked graves of disappeared children. Unlike those done in Choom and Sean Ross Abbey, the so-called archaeological assessment by the Commission has never been published. It remains sealed along with its entire archive of documents into Bessborough. No one can access them, not even Uncommission Planola. So the fact that they can grant planning permission and simultaneously conclude that the history of burials on the grounds is incomplete is just appalling. And the trauma this has caused for survivors is immeasurable. One survivor, Terry Mayer, told the Irish Examiner it was like a, quote, stab in my heart and soul because it showed the inhumanity and the callousness. Taoiseach, two weeks ago when I asked you to CPO this site, you told me you were waiting for the outcome of the appeal before deciding how to respond. Well, you have it now. So what are you going to do? Will you unseal all records about burials from the archives of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission? Will you ask the Attorney General to order an inquest into the deaths of children and women in Bessborough, as he has the power to do under Section 4 of the Coroner's Act 1962? And critically, will you CPO the land? I'd say in terms of the presentation of sealing archives, I think is somewhat disingenuous and totally inaccurate. My understanding is that the action it takes to, well, I know it was the legislation of the last government, was to protect those archives. Because if we didn't do that legislation, there wouldn't be, extent no, they would have been destroyed by the Commission. So I think we need honesty in this debate, and we need to stop name-calling everybody and sort of saying you're doing this and you're sealing that. We're not. The actions of the last government with respect to this issue were very comprehensive. And for the first time ever, we overcame certain constitutional issues to make sure that everyone who was adopted had access to their full birth records. And that was always the most consistent demand of people in that area. And that's what happened then. And I remember there was, in the last government, there was a huge campaign trying to block legislation that if it didn't go through the House, would have meant those archives would have been destroyed. A dishonest campaign, an outrageous campaign, organized by people who should have known better. Thanks to the God that then Minister Roger Cormann brought that legislation through, because it has protected the archives. And as you know, we're having a National Archive Centre for all material that is, in terms of all institutions, be it industrial schools, modern baby homes, and other institutions, for their preservation, conservation, and ultimately access for people who wish to access them. In respect of Bessborough, I think we have to also say that Uncommissioned Planalla is independent. I hope you accept that. It's independent of government. It's independent of the Oireachtas. And people may describe its actions as disgusting and so on, but it is independent in its planning functions. And if we ever get to the day where politicians feel that we can intervene on an ongoing basis on various issues, I think that would, over time, become problematic as well for society. In respect of the Bessborough site and the decision, there's no evidence yet that there's any barriers in the specific site for which housing has been applied for. Originally, Bessborough was 200 acres. It's now 60 acres. And an element of that 60 acres, the land was bought. I've been on record as saying I would have preferred if that land was bought back in the late teens in 1819 by the state via the local authority. That did not happen. It was bought in different lots, is my understanding. There has been state buildings on the site of Bessborough for quite a long time, buildings which provide services to the state. And there's been lots of activity on that site for a long, long time, long before the Commission of Inquiry as well. But in terms of the Commission of Inquiry, they did examine the Bessborough site extensively, including cartographic and archival research, site surveys, and public appeals for information. Now, the Commission, sorry, apologies. You come back in, yeah? Deputy, please. I take it from your reply that the answer is no, you won't be CPO-ing the land if you're talking about respecting on board Planola's decision. And I have to say, well, correct me if I'm wrong, I hope you are going to make moves to CPO the land. But I believe this will go down as the most callous decision by this government. A Commission of Investigation said it's highly likely that there's children, there are uninvestigated deaths that they've died from, buried in these grounds. And you say, go ahead and build apartments on it. I think you underestimate the strength of feeling on this issue. But crucially, you underestimate the strength of survivors. Because this is so fundamentally wrong. Not only do they know it, the general public know it. And I don't believe that this build will go ahead. I know people will chain themselves to the gates before diggers can roll in there to build, to concrete over land where there are hundreds, potentially hundreds of children. Can you clarify? Are you going to CPO the land? Are you going to call it what you want? You say they're not sealed? Taoiseach will respond now, Deputy. Thank you. Taoiseach, please. You don't say that a decision of board Planola is the most callous decision of this government. Sorry, I didn't interrupt you. I didn't interrupt you, Deputy. And you don't have a monopoly of empathy or anger. No one cares about what you think about a monopoly on caring. This is about people who are buried in the ground. Save us the spiel about how much you care. Am I not allowed to speak? Are you going to shout me down all of the time? Or do you not believe in freedom of expression of everybody in the house? And what is wrong is for you to misrepresent me and misrepresent the government's position on this. So we have not been involved in the decision of board Planola. Deputy, please. By the way, you know, and I have had the opportunity to go through this, but you know in terms of the planning protections, because of laws we've passed, if anything is found there of human remains, it has to stop. If anything happens, it has to stop immediately. Because there has to be a forensic archaeological strategy involved. That's mandatory. There has to be a forensic archaeologist must be present throughout the entire excavation work. All works must cease immediately if human remains are discovered. No, that's it. Time is up. In terms of your basic question on a CD. Taoiseach, time is up. Well, I'm afraid you weren't afforded the opportunity. Would you allow the deputy? The problem is that the deputy. Thank you, Chief Whip. I am in the chair. I call on Deputy Vannevat. We need a bit of balance here. Well, it would be a lesson to other members to listen to the answer, please.