Richard Boyd Barrett: Trade Is Propping Up Occupation

Yes, I can move that, can't I? Yes. Thank you. Do you want to speak to it? Yeah, well I kind of covered the point earlier on, but yeah, I just think that we need sanctions that are going to be impactful. I was just looking over the title of the bill, which is an act to provide for the compliance by the state of its international legal obligation as identified by the ICJ advisory opinion, and to take steps to prevent trade relations that assist in the maintenance of the illegal situation created by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory. That's the words of the bill itself. Now, how on earth does the extent of trade that we're doing with the state generally, and also of exports in the case of this, not contribute to that? It self-evidently does. So, I mean, to me, if we're doing trade with them, if we're doing trade with them, then we are contributing to the maintenance of the illegal situation in the occupied territories. In fact, I would say, it's not one iota of an exaggeration to say, without the economic support that Israel gets from the European Union and the United States, basically, those two, but Europe being the biggest trading partner, Israel would not be able to commit the crimes it's committing, just wouldn't be able to do it, wouldn't be able to sustain it. And I do notice, actually, Netanyahu saying today, probably because he's beginning to, you know, it's becoming apparent to Netanyahu how isolated, certainly in terms of the minds of public opinion across the world, how isolated the regime is, that they could have problems further down the line. And he was talking about how they have to build up their own capacity to produce weapons. In other words, they mightn't be able to rely on getting imports of weapons in the medium to long term because of the outrage and horror that has been expressed by people all over the world about what they've done to the Palestinians, the horror that they've imposed on them. So they have to produce their own means. They have to be able to produce their own weapons to keep killing Palestinians. So anything we're doing to export stuff into this state, into this territory, is assisting them. It's assisting them in building up the capacity to continue the crimes against the Palestinians. So for that reason, I think we should examine and have a report. I mean, I don't think we should be doing it. I've made that clear. I don't think we should be doing any trade whatsoever of any relations with this regime that is capable of this horror. But at the very least, I would like us to have a look at the issue of exports, as this amendment proposed, within six months of the passing of the Act. Thank you, Deputy. So again, the objective here is that we focus on the importation of goods and the work that we are doing when it looks at overall trade more broadly, any engagement with Israel, the Association Agreement. We've been advocating for this at an EU level and that will continue. Just for clarification, Minister, you're only proposing, are you not, just to be clear, the suspension of the favour trade status. That's what you're proposing. You're not proposing to the European Union that we should end trade with Israel? No, we're not proposing that. We've never pretend to propose that. We don't have a full sanction or boycott on Russia. That approach has not been taken in many instances, so that's not what we're proposing here. What we are proposing, though, with the suspension of the Association Agreement, not just the trade element, would have significant consequences from an economic perspective and I do think would have a huge impact on Israel's actions. I don't believe there's a consensus for that, but we will continue to advocate for it. The Association Agreement, the trade element, is obviously the most significant financially, but there are other elements to it as well that would impact the relationship between the EU and Israel if it were to be suspended. So we've been very clear, not just in the last few months, but for a long time that that's something we want and would prefer to happen. But again, unfortunately, there is not a consensus in that regard, so this is why we have been taking the approach that we are taking. Well, I might just say, I don't want to labour this too much, but I do think people deserve clarity on it, because you put it very clearly. It's not just because you don't think there's a consensus, is it? I mean, just to be clear, but what you have confirmed there is that when there's talk of the EU-Israel trade agreement, all you're seeking at a European level is the suspension of an agreement that gives favoured trade status to Israel, not that Europe should end trade with Israel. And the reason I say that is because the vast, vast majority of people out there who have been on the streets and expressing their outrage and horror when they think about sanctions, that's what they think we're talking about, is they think it's a boycott of a similar kind to the one that was imposed on apartheids in Africa. That's what people think when you say we're advocating at a European level. But just to be clear, that's not what you're advocating, is it? And you're not proposing to advocate it at any stage. And is it because you don't think that would be a good idea? Or just because you don't think it would ever get support? So firstly, I think a lot of people know exactly what we're doing here, and I think people know exactly what Ireland has been advocating for. And we're not doing it because I think it's very clear that where you impose full sanctions, you have people who are impacted by it. You have general citizens who might be completely opposed to what Netanyahu and his government are doing that are impacted by it. So we've been clear, I mean, there was a bill put forward a number of weeks ago by yourself, which advocated for just that. And we very clearly voted against it for the reasons that we outlined then and that I'm outlining now, a full boycott and sanction. I mean, we haven't imposed that on Russia. And we clearly do not support the actions of Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. But you impact every single citizen in that country when you do a full boycott in that regard. So that's not the approach that we are advocating for, because we want an approach that would specifically address the actions of the government and those who support them. But there's very clearly people who don't support this. There's very clearly people, very clearly Jewish communities and people not just inside Israel, but outside who do not support this. So I think we need to be clear, what are we trying to do here? We are trying to change the actions of the Israeli government. We are trying to have an impact, yes. And to say that the association agreement, if we were to suspend it, that is worth tens of billions of euro to the Israeli government and will, of course, impact people. But to have a full boycott, you're talking about medicines, you're talking about food, you're talking about everything. And the potential implications for every single citizen is broad. And so that's, again, why we haven't done this to Russia. We haven't done it to other countries where we very clearly do not support their regime and we don't support their actions. But I do think what we are advocating for would have a significant impact, not just economically, but in many different ways as well. It would actually impact on the overall relationship between the EU and Israel. But I don't think every single, I don't believe, I know, in fact, that every person in Israel actually supports what's happening here. They don't. And so we need to try and advocate for that change at a government level. Well, just to be clear, I mean, this weekend, just for your information, Minister, I'm sure they'd be very glad to see you come along. There is a conference taking place in Dublin, which is a Jewish anti-Zionist conference, international conference, where leading Jewish anti-Zionists from across the world will be coming to Dublin to advocate precisely full BDS, full BDS. Just so you know, because you did mention sort of it might impact on other Jewish people. There are many, many Jewish people who advocate full boycott, divestment and sanctions against the state of Israel. And it's important you know that, because the conflation which recklessly Benjamin Netanyahu and others, supporters of that regime, you know, where they try and conflate the Judaic religion with the Zionist regime, in a way that's actually very, is dangerous for Jewish people, in my opinion. But just for the record, there are many, many Jewish people and there will be very prominent people from that perspective in Dublin this weekend at a conference in Tallah advocating for full BDS against the state of Israel. And the people who helped me understand the history of the Israeli regime, what it had done to the Palestinians and it convinced me that the entire Israeli state should be dismantled in the same way as apartheid South Africa, were Jewish people. Just for the record. And Jewish people who had been brought up in Mandate Palestine and who opposed the establishment of the Israeli state and the rise of the Zionist movement, which tore people apart on religious grounds. Just like the partition of Ireland divided Catholic and Protestant, the partition of Palestine divided Jewish and Christian and Muslim people who previously had lived in relative harmony. So just for the record, it's important to say that. So advocating for BDS, which I think is what the government should do, is a position that is held by many, many Jewish people.