Pearse Doherty: Demands Answers on NAMA CEO €430k Pay

Minister, again I spoke to you at committee on this and look this has been an ongoing saga in relation to the story of the bumper salary of the CEO of NAMA and it's turned into a saga and nobody wants to answer questions on it and the government's fingerprints is all over in this here because obviously he's wanted that individual to end up being in a wee cosy job that he's earmarked for him as the housing czar but that all fell at the sonder as well but we've been stonewalled now for months on this here and this is like this is information that should be available to the public as to whether or not the NAMA CEO is going to keep his 430,000 euro salary when he returns to the NTMA that's the salary he has as a result of him being the CEO of NAMA it was never intended as I said for him to return to a CEO of NAMA because the government wanted him as the housing czar until that fell apart when the public were outraged that he would be paid so much to do what is essentially the minister's job so when that fell through the section in the heads of bill that said all staff of NAMA when it was wound up would be transferred to the resolution unit and the NTMA to handle the residual activity was taken out of the legislation we have before us when it was published now we all know that the NAMA CEO will return to the NTMA but not in the resolution unit so what we don't know is if he's going to keep his salary despite no longer being a CEO what we do not know is if there's any sixth in vacancy and going on at a senior management team level or is that job going to be created for him and what we are missing here is transparency and I believe it's a disgrace in relation to transparency there should be no reason for secrecy or hidden you know information in in this regard we're talking about how public money is spent where and we're talking about how the government is refusing to answer questions and has gone to great lengths to hide it from any real oversight like we're winding up NAMA the you produced legislation to say everybody including the CEO was supposed to go into a resolution unit but you didn't tell us at the time you published that you read that legislation that you said another plan for the CEO you just wanted to second him off and be the housing czar with a huge salary because you wanted your minister who wasn't up to the job to have a dig out by a housing czar and now when that fell apart you've had to create a new system and you won't give us any information in relation to it so it's it's not on um because it is public money at the end of the day the NAMA CEO is having is going to go into a senior role now in the NTMA is it being created for him is there a vacancy is one being created to justify him keeping a salary of four hundred and thirty thousand I have no idea because you won't give us the information and it's a scandal in my view it's a murky ending too that's all too fitting for the role that's NAMA has played in our society and I put it to you minister uh that you should between committee stage and report stage because these questions were asking you in committee stage you should now know this information and you should put it on the public record here in the house I'm I would be happy to hear that there is a vacancy with a reduced salary and that you will be taking that up and that you're transparent and give us the criteria or the range in relation to what that salary is but if it's just more stonewalling then we on the opposition benches or the general public what are we supposed to conclude from all of that and that's why we have this amendment before the house and which makes it very clear that it's not acceptable that you actually have these type of arrangements and that we have within six months a report by the late before the house is the rock this that provides a table outlining all NAMA managed properties sorry all a report detailing all the transfer of staff from NAMA to the NTMA provide information on salary and if any existing vacancies were filled or new positions created with the NTMA in addition to the resolution unit outside of all of that we don't really need the report what we need is just a bit of transparency a bit of frontness from the government you know it was because of all this dodgy cageyness not being transparent with the public that your whole plans for the ceo of NAMA fell through because he's created a wee you know a wee job over there for him that was a you know somebody that the public perceived as an insider you know somebody that was already in a well-paid position that's no disrespect to the individual himself but you've created the situation use it and you put him in that situation now you're in a situation where you're not being transparent we don't know where he's going we don't know if there's a job being created we don't know if a vacancy existed within the NTMA this is all basic information that should be just said in the public it should be said yes there's a vacancy at senior management level in the NTMA the salary ranges between 150,000 and 250,000 for those type of management roles and that's where he's going in because he was seconded from it that would Chris would bring transparency to this situation or it might be a case because I don't know no it's position has been created for the ceo he will retain his salary of 400,000 or maybe he'll take a wee cut of 50,000 he'll still be on 380,000 and we're creating a job for him because the job doesn't exist but he wasn't supposed to go here because the job that the government had for him fell through because he's handled it arseways so like please tell us what is happening with the CEO of NAMA thank you I'd respond to the amendment that was put down which was in relation to the transfer of staff and not the single out one individual staff and I thank deputy doherty for bringing forward this amendment which proposes to amend the legislation to require a reporting on staff transferring from NAMA to the NTMA including salary information as outlined at committee stage the legislation does not include any provisions relating to the transfer of staff from NAMA to the NTMA the general scheme of the bill published in 24 had included a standard provision to provide for the transfer of staff reflecting precedents in other similar legislation however following further engagement with NAMA and the NTMA it became clear that no statutory mechanism is necessary in this case this is because NAMA does not employ staff in its own right all individuals working in NAMA and always have been employees of the NTMA assigned to perform NAMA functions accordingly there is no transfer of employment arising from the dissolution of NAMA and the premise of transfer of staff therefore does not arise in fact or in law in practical terms a small number of staff will be assigned to a dedicated unit within the NTMA to manage the limited residual work that will remain following NAMA's dissolution this is not a new statutory structure but a functional unit operating within the NTMA's existing operational governance and resourcing framework the roles within the unit are aligned with the completion of the residual work and the work itself is simply being integrated into the ongoing operations of the NTMA when operational the unit's eight staff are expected to comprise a head of unit, two finance professionals, two operational professionals, two debtor case managers and one legal professional the head of the unit will report to the NTMA's chief financial or an operating officer and the unit will be supported by the NTMA's wider operational platform including IT, compliance, human resources and facilities no additional standalone corporate infrastructure is required it is also important to recognize the broader organizational context the NTMA is a large established state body with approximately 688 employees at the end of 2025 excluding those assigned to NAMA with while the dissolution of NAMA is a significant step reflecting the fact that it is largely concluded as operational work the assignment of a small number of staff to a specific function within the NTMA is an internal organizational matter while the deputy does not specifically refer to the position of chief executive officer in his amendment he does in his contribution and I again note that this role will cease on the dissolution of NAMA as the legislative basis for the position is repealed the current CEO has a permanent is has been a permanent employee of the NTMA operating in a senior executive role before NAMA's establishment he will transition within the organization under his existing contractual framework this does not involve a new appointment but reflects the normal reassignments of an NTMA employee following organizational change as with all NTMA staff matters relating to assignments roles and individual contractual terms are managed within the agency neither as minister for finance or I have any role in such arrangements turning to the remuneration the NTMA operates within an established statutory and governance framework and complies fully with the code of practice for the governance of state bodies and provides transparency through its annual report including the publication of employee remuneration in bands of 25 000 euro beginning with those earning in excess of 50 000 euro this ensures appropriate public accountability at an aggregate level it would not be appropriate to publish salary information relating to individual employees such information constitutes personal data and is subject to contractual confidentiality and data protection requirements staff assigned to the resolution units will be captured within these existing NTMA reporting arrangements in the same manner as staff across all other functional areas of the NTMA more broadly the NTMA is an established state body with its own statutory functions governance structures and accountability arrangements decisions relating to staffing organizational structure and the allocation of roles within the agencies are matters for the NTMA itself operating within that framework in that context the additional reporting requirements proposed in this amendment is neither necessary nor proportionate the amendment is predicted on a transfer of staff that does not arise as all NAMA staff are employed by the NTMA and there is no transfer of staff under the legislation the information sought is also already either publicly available at an appropriate level of aggregation or relates to matters that are governed within the NTMA's existing oversight and confidentiality framework for these reasons i'm not in a position to accept the amendment were the reasons that were no wiser after the five minute contribution from the minister in relation to where whether the ceo of NAMA is going to go into the NTMA on a 430,000 if there's going to be a vacancy there or is a job going to be created i press the amendment because there's no light obviously shone by the minister on this issue okay is the amendments being pressed it's a question sorry minister yes just just to make the point the current ceo of NAMA has has been a permanent employee of the NTMA since before NAMA's establishment the NAMA ceo position will cease on the dissolution of NAMA at that point he will continue as an NTMA employee under his existing employment framework and individual contract this does not involve a new appointment or indeed any special arrangement but reflects his ongoing status as an NTMA employee he has not been newly appointed or accommodated rather his role is changing follow following the dissolution of NAMA and any future role he takes within the organization is a matter for the current ceo of the NTMA and he will and he will report within the NTMA structure he will not be the accounting officer he will not be the ceo of the NTMA as with all staff his contractual rights as employee continue to continue to apply matters relating to individual contracts are the responsibility of the ceo and the NTMA and are not determined by the minister as minister of state or indeed the senior minister we have no role in individual contractual terms conditions assignments within the NTMA and the ceo the NTMA is appointed to an open competitive process and is accountable to the public accounts committee and the staff underneath him are accountable to the ceo