Mattie McGrath: NAMA wind‑down must not bury accountability

Go raibh maith agat, I'm Céad Oisíos, Alaska Hullock, I want to say to the Deputy O'Toole, can't make it, she's stuck in traffic, and I'm sharing with the Deputy anyway, 12 minutes and 8. I'm going to say on behalf of Deputy O'Toole, she asked me to say that she hopes that the funds, the extra funds that are there, come available, you know, as a result of the wind-up of NAMA, should be ring-fins for projects in her constituency. And as part of that, I'd like to represent her, and also that the Navon Rail Roof, which was picked today, is one of the projects that she wants funding to be ring-fins from this sorry saga. Go raibh maith agat. Minister Cathaoirleach, Alaska Hullock, I'm glad to get the opportunity to speak on this bill, which brings about the final winding down of NAMA, and the transfer of all remaining matters to the NTMA. As I've said many times in this House, the legacy of NAMA is a trail of destruction, when it was left behind in villages, towns, families across the country. Under the guise of a walk-out behaviour, it has been the most economically destructive agency in Ireland, and has been a catalyst for the disastrous housing crisis that has plagued us here in Ireland. I said on the night it was set up last year, and I do want to pay tribute to late Brian Linehan and the efforts he made, I said on that night to himself here that it was like a wild animal being released into the woods, no one knew where it would end up. There are very many human stories, many still unresolved, and there have been many claims of corruption and fraudulent activity, which has gone without anyone being held to account. NAMA has a very poor history, but no state-sponsored and state-staffed behaviour should be able to perform fraudulent activities without being held to account or punished. I want to raise one of the stories, and put it on record again today, I have many times, with Mr John Prower, the excellent businessman from Clann Mell, whose case I've raised here with the Taoiseach, the Minister of Finance, and indeed the Finance Committee. I have raised, I said directly with those people, and I have raised this with the Head of Revenue, and this issue continues to be ignored and swept under the carpet. The fear, of course, is that NAMA is being dissolved, that these issues will remain firmly under the carpet, and there will be no accountability for anyone. I have a paragraph here and a letter here from Mr John Prower from Revenue that he received, which is quite alarming, and which covers what I want to say here. I have raised the matter of fraudulent transactions involving NAMA in the past, and the matter is so serious that it brings into focus the reason that NAMA was staffed by NTMA employees. It is a perfect case of a Department of Finance-sponsored system that could perform transactions and would never be prosecuted or held to account as gatekeeper and an enforcement agency of the state was compromised and staffed. And I want to thank you, Alaskan Cola, for your excellent work. And I have to mention the Butler family in Clonmel in Tiburary, and they were blackmailed. Many families have been destroyed. Many have taken their own lives, and many have separated marriages, family splits, you name it. I want to thank you for your work in the Finance Committee in being brave and trying to get answers. The Department of Finance could control each element of the system and ensure that each transaction was rubber-stamped by revenue, regardless of whether it was legal or not. Just imagine. I now refer to a Revenue Commissioner's Collector General receipt dated 21st 2nd 2015, Notice No. 0973138-001310. This receipt was provided to the National Annual Asset Loan Management Limited. The receipt was based on a Ross payment dated 16th February 2015, made by the National Asset Loan Management Limited. NAMA, the National Asset Loan Management Limited, attached a letter to Revenue Drive Hill to explain the payment made. The letter was signed by Ms. Theresa Coulthard, Head of Tax. In the letter dated 20th 16th 2nd 2015, the National Anonymous Loan Management Limited, note that the details they are providing to Revenue are not true and are downright false. The current Chairman of Revenue, fully aware of the 2015 fraction that I am referring to, the fraudulent scheme that NAMA and Revenue began with the false transaction, allowed a sequence of transactions to occur that involves, amongst other things, back fraud. I have raised this here countless times. The GAD won't investigate it, they told me they can't investigate it. And now Commissioner of the EU, your former colleague, raised this question here several times before he left to go to European Post, back when he was an opposition finance spokesman. Another example of revenue generated document that arises from the fraud by NAMA Limited is a stamp certificate dated 13th 14th 2015. Stamp certificate ID 150441576-81B3090415-J. The Department of Finance, in attempting to destroy any trace of fraudulent activities by removing NAMA and its various entities, providing cover for all state employees who carried out or assisted in that fraud. This is a shocking situation that we are passing here today. And families traumatised. And as others have said, paying the USC as a temporary measure to pay for all this. And this fraud, and the monies that was made, and illegal transactions, and a blind eye to it, it's just shocking. The bill dissolves NAMA and transfers everything, including unresolved litigation, which will extend beyond the formal wind-down of the agency. But it will not take into account the fraudulent activities that have happened under its watch. Minister, you might answer those questions when you stand up. There are many Johnny Firehouse in this country, as I said. I could name dozens of them. With the Conmail Arms Project. I call it Project Jackdaw here. A scurrilous interference with the property of NAMA, and we got information back when there was a buyer trying to buy it. I also have, as I said, you mentioned the Butler family. But I have countless families from all over the country, as you must have too, Minister. And Michael Noonan, he said, he wouldn't talk to anyone at the time, he said the voucher funds were necessary. Anyone that rears sheep and knows anything about country living knows that vouchers are the most despicable creatures that are there by their very, very name. And he just told his own backbenchers to ignore any families coming to him. With the case of a wonderful auctioneer, Devere Hunt in Castle, who ended up in his grave as well as a result of NAMA. His wife came in here and testified to you, Chairman, here. You remember that. And it was blocked and stopped. But thanks to you, Deputy McGuinness, she came and made her position in a private session. You sat in front of the chair and she put her seat. And people were brought to tears listening to her story. But there are hundreds of those stories up and down the country. Lives wrecked and ruined. As I said, so when the government tells us that the NTMA will now take over all remaining matters, I must ask you, Minister, what guarantees do the people like Mr Fraher and the other families have that their cases will finally be treated fairly and will be held to account for any wrongdoing? The assurance that makes the mistakes of NAMA will not simply be inherited and quietly buried. And I think that's what's going to happen. And I'm very content about that. The bill states that the NTMA will be substituted for NAMA and all proceedings and that no cause of action will be against the NTMA solely by reason of the transfer. Isn't it a nice way to leave it behind you? That may protect the state, but who protects the citizens who have been destroyed by this? Who protects the people who are paying the U.S.C.E. every week? Who protects them? Nobody. This is a shocking vista, as I said. And now we're going to have it all at full show and we're going to pay the new C.E.O. here even though there's no job in the NTMA, we're going to create one for him. I think something over 400,000 a year. In God's name I say to you, and the liberties run in the asylum here are so unaccountable that we allow this to happen. Who ensures that unresolved grievances, and there are thousands of them, the very ones I have raised here for years, are not lost in the reshuffle? I think it's a deliberate play that they will be lost. I want to be very clear, I'm not opposing the idea of winding down NAMA after I oppose this set up, as I am worried that proper transparency, proper accountability won't transfer with it. I'm opposing the attempt to use this dissolution as a way of dissolving responsibility and also the people affected in NAMA and decisions deserve closure, deserve support, deserve counting, deserve to have some money come out of the nice bag. Transparency is also essential, but it's a very scarce item in this house and with this government and for successive governments. Too much of NAMA's work was hidden behind confidentiality, question mark, question mark. If we are closing this chapter, then the truth must be allowed to come out. Some media have showed interest here, but the editorials won't allow them to publish it. The fear, the big hand and the might of money and the might of threats is all there. I will continue to raise this case in order to say it acknowledges the human cost of decisions made by NAMA and IBRC. I will support any measure that brings fairness, accountability and closure, but I will not support a process that simply dissolves the agency while dissolving responsibility along with it. I have heard your speech today and I have heard other speeches as well. I have so many cases. With the case of a retail park against the poppy fields. Mr. Fryherr was the brainchild of that scheme and what went on there and the transfer of lands when the hotel is operating today without planning permission. No fire search. I don't want to damage the hotel, it's a good hotel, great service, great employees, but the sheer corruption that went on in the transfer of that land and money changed hands and all hush-hush. Can't get answers. The Gardaí sheikhs are refusing to investigate this. I've been told by the teacher here and to honour the orders to go to the Gardaí. We'll try to write to the Gardaí and ask them and meet them. Revenue have refused to meet us. They've refused to meet Mr. Fryherr and myself and they've refused to meet anyone. So they're hoping for this all to go away like snow off a ditch. Thank God the weather is picking up today. This is not going to go away. It was wrong from the start, it's wrong all the time, and it's even more morally wrong now that we would pass this all aside and place it into this new agency that we don't have faith in either and give the employees there a cat's bench. Some of them are getting good jobs there. I think the Minister is shocking. I want to thank Deputy McGuinness. If one of the Government TDs had tried to assist families, some of them would have made it in time. We have Professor Horner and his report and what he's about to lay out as well. And the total unfairness in the courts. Thank you.