Gerard P. Craughwell Questions 128 Million Helicopter Purchase

Okay, first and foremost, thank you for being here and thank you for your presentation. At the outset, I just want to compliment the infrastructure side. The work that you have managed to achieve in the various barracks around the country in Hull, Bolin, etc. is extraordinary. It's of the highest quality and I want to compliment you for that. Mr Carney, you showed us around Hull, Bolin, I think it was last year. We were in Grange, Gorman recently. The work that's been done is incredible. Soldiers will be very comfortable. Sailors will be comfortable with what you've done. So, compliments. It's always good to start on a positive note. I want to... If I may, sorry for interrupting. If I may, I'll also take that back to the team, Senator, because as you'll appreciate, there's a lot of people doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's not just me alone. But thanks so much for those kind words. Thank you. Thank you. Now, government policy is to follow the level of ambition, too. Am I correct? That is current government policy, to follow... So, if I look at the report on the future of the Defence Forces, page 34, it talks about helicopters. And it says, it makes eminent sense to maintain the Defence Forces' capability that can also deliver non-military outputs using dual capability and, in the context of the Commission, recommends within LOA2, two additional medium-lift rotary wing aircraft should be acquired, increasing the current lift to eight helicopters. And then thinking in terms of the capture of the ship off the southwest coast, where we had but one helicopter to take special forces out to that ship, it strikes me that it would make eminent sense to have purchased two additional... I think they're Augusta Westing 139s. I think that's what they told us over in Ballydon. I'm no aviation expert. But I'm looking at the aircraft that have been purchased, the H145s. And from what I can see on the internet, and I'm no expert, first and foremost, I can see that they are not a medium-lift aircraft. I understand they would not be capable of carrying a full section of special forces at any stage. They're armed, which strikes me as a bit odd, given that there were to be dual use, particularly aid to local authorities and other government departments. I'm not sure what missiles we'll need to fire with those particular helicopters. But I'm trying to figure out why we bought a smaller helicopter and why we're paying so much. I understand the contract is 128 million for the four. And I go back to your own submission for the SAR, and I see at that time two helicopters, two 139s, were to be purchased for 17.5 million each. Bringing the price forward to today's prices, we're talking about the two helicopters costing around about 42 million. That's a loan for an inflation of about 2% per annum since 2021. So it appears that the department has gone off and bought helicopters that were not recommended in the Commission on the Future of Defence. And the helicopters they bought are not, in my humble opinion, suitable for the job that they're supposed to be able to do. You can't bring a section of special forces on them if you need to capture a ship or something in the future. And it strikes me that we are paying way over the odds. I'd like you to answer that, and I want to talk more about procurement. I mightn't get to it this time, but we'll get to it the next time. I take that, Senator. Thank you for that. It's a very valid question, very valid observation. But I suppose it is important to emphasise that the Commission on the Defence Forces sets the overall capability objectives, and the government approved the implementation process which explicitly provides for flexibility and responsiveness. It is important to emphasise that the Commission on the Defence Forces sets the overall capability objectives, and the government approved the implementation process which explicitly provides for flexibility and responsiveness in how these capabilities are delivered. This means that procurement decisions can evolve over time to reflect operational experience and requirements while still remaining fully aligned with the intent of the Commission's recommendations. In relation to the air domain capability, and I suppose this is the important point, the high-level strategic objective identified by the Commission is to increase availability, capacity, and operational output. The decision to procure these four H-145s helicopters reflects an assessment of how the Air Corps is actually tasked. The types of missions, such as training of pilots, do not require medium lift capability, and the EC-135 helicopters are an ageing fleet, and they're required to be replaced. So this was actually a prioritisation in respect of ensuring that the pilots are actually, there's helicopters available to be able to train helicopter pilots because they're actually going overseas. It's outsourced at the moment to other jurisdictions. So this was critical to ensure that that actually was available, helicopter lift was there available. So the decision to procure these helicopters is fully aligned with the capability objectives as set out in the Commission, given the actual flexibility built in within the implementation process. So the approach is not to augment the legacy capabilities. So the AW139 helicopter fleet is due to be replaced by the super-medium helicopter fleet. They were regarded as basically a legacy capability. So the aim is to deliver the most effective, sustainable, and usable capability for Ireland's needs and into the future, particularly the emphasis on the training. So the platform is simply a different route to get there. It delivers more availability and operational output. The overall fleet capability will have increased because the Air Corps will be able to do more missions more often with more availability. And this is the relevance for Ireland's needs. For aircraft to deliver more capacity in practice than to on paper, availability is the key constraint, not lift capacity. And these are training helicopters which will replace, as I said, the EC135 platform, which was not specifically mentioned in the Commission report. It is an ageing fleet. So this is where this prioritisation comes from, so I hope that explains that to you. Can I stop you there? The purchase price is one thing that we're talking about. We're changing the platform from the Gustav West Wing over to the Airbus. That means all of the pilots are going to have to be retrained. That means all of the technical staff are going to have to be retrained. That means parts, all of these things have to be... So the purchase price of 128 million, I think that's what's published on the website, if I'm not mistaken. That doesn't cover the full cost. And then I look at Cyprus, and I see Cyprus bought six of the same aircraft for less than we bought four. So maybe if I just explain, Senator, and thank you for that, just to explain in terms of the actual airframe itself, it's actually the initial training. So the AW139, which is a different type of a helicopter, it's a larger, more capable helicopter in the sense of airlift capability, that requires different training. So the pilots will start off with a smaller helicopter, and then they have to be proficient in that. And then they learn how to train and actually utilise a different type of an airframe. So there's safety considerations here as well. So they're around all of that. All of that is managed in an operational way by the Air Corps in terms of their own planning function. So you reference there then another jurisdiction there in relation to how they actually procured. But it all depends on what equipment you actually put on airframes as well. These are militarised airframes, so there's different options in terms of some of the equipment. So that could influence price as well. So I do think we actually did a very good, hard negotiation with the supplier. So we did, and I do think we actually got quite good value for money for what we have procured. So I have no difficulty in explaining that. Clearly the Cypriots did a much better job in negotiating. Well, it depends, so it does, in terms of what they actually have. Is that the base airframe? Do they actually upgrade it? And do they have another contract? You don't know. I understand it's a higher specification, but anyhow, I'm out of time. Thank you.