Brian Stanley presses IPO on landlord registration and rent proposal

Welcome, Mrs. Abel. Could we just start with the Irish Property Owners Association? Just in relation to the number of tenancies and the number of landlords, that's decreasing all the time. Is that correct? That's been decreasing. Both have. Okay. The RTB, their figures show that the actual number of registered private tenancies is up 4.6% annually, 340,640. That's correct. And the number of landlords grew by 1.4% in the last 12 months. So, why is that? You're wondering why is that? In a word, what's the problem? Landlords aren't being honest in registering. Is that what's happening? That's one side to it. The other side to it, obviously, is that last November, the RTB sent out 16,000 emails to numerous non-registered landlords and registered landlords. So, that would have encouraged more and more guys to register. But absolutely, the registration numbers in certain counties were way below what they should have been. Galway, in particular, was bad and so was Donegal. There are other figures. There are other figures that show the actual number of tenancies. The number of units rented are actually up. The number of overall units are up. The overall units are... There are other figures that are showing that. Is that correct? Sorry, cost rental is now included. And it wasn't... No, no, I'm talking about private residents. They are also registered with the RTB now. Yes, I know. I understand that. There's an argument that they've changed the goalposts as to how they looked at the counting. They have new... They moved along from the old system where it was every four years you were registered or every six years you were registered. And their amount of tenancies at that stage were different. Then when they moved in and they moved to annual registration, it was almost impossible to get the registrations over the line. Numerous landlords got frustrated. They just couldn't do it. They were going back and forth and trying to do it. Yeah. So, you're looking at a point in time from around 2022 to now. Okay, we'll accept that. I'm just watching Margaret, just for the time. So, the number of registered tenants is up. The number of registered landlords is up. I think you accept that the number of, and I understand some may not have been registered or difficult registering, but the actual number of rented units is up. Could I ask in relation to the... In your open statement where you said that in relation to tenants where they have low rents, there's evidence of black market activity, where tenants are actually renting, subletting to other tenants. Where is there much evidence of that, Morris? Again, we're getting the calls into the office. We did a survey and 46% of our members have had subletting, whereby they have had tenants living in a property that they did not allow the tenant, they did not give permission for the tenant to be there. So, it is happening all over. Brian, it makes perfect sense. You're stuck on an old rent of 2015 plus 2% of all the years going forward, and you're now getting that for so cheap, and you're made coming in from wherever. Why wouldn't you make 200 quid a month out of it or whatever? Well, just the 46% would surprise me, because just the money sent from what I see, I wouldn't have thought it was anything near that. You know, of course there will always be somebody that will do that, but I wouldn't have thought it is widespread. It's particularly strong in the Dublin area. Right, okay. They're more honest down the country. So, could I just ask in relation to, and I understand why that would be, because people are more anonymous, you know, there's not as much on the ground evidence and all that. Could I ask in relation to the fix for this issue of, and I get it, you know, where a landlord has been charging historically very low rent, because he's a good tenant, you know, I know people who would have a second house and has rented somebody cheap for a number of years, they're happy enough with them there, the rent will be half what it is generally in the general area, happy days, but the, obviously, you know, it can cause problems with the new restrictions coming in. In a word, what's the fix for that? You know, is it reference rents? How do we fix that without, you know, without causing some other unintended consequence? How should that be fixed for your point of view? We had suggested, the IPO had suggested that rents will be increased by 4% a year for four years, and then revert to market rent at year five, so that it wouldn't just completely fall off a cliff. But some of the rents are extremely low, and the tenants just aren't moving, and we'll complete them. To revert to the market, the average market rent in the area? Yes, in year five, yeah. Right, so what you were saying is, just say you're charging, just say I'm charging 60% now of what the market rent is in an area, so I continue charging 60%, I go up 4% each year on year five, then it levels out, it comes up to whatever the market rent is in the area. Well, as Anne-Marie said, most tenancies last from three to four years, so if a tenant knows that the rent is going to be at market rent by year five, they know what they can plan for moving if they feel that the rent is going to be too strong at year five. So in effect it becomes a reference rent? I suppose you put it that way, yeah. Okay, just to look at the size of the property or other factors, and just what's the highest proportion of a person's net income or household income should be spent in rent? Just from your experience. Generally, I would look at 35% of net income. Yes, of take-home income. All right, thanks very much, we're going to move on to Senate.