Brian Stanley challenges defence on undersea infrastructure protection

I'll go on to Deputy Stanley. Good morning and morning to the witnesses. Just the first question I had is in relation to just the current level of protection. Obviously, you know, from discussions in this room and outside it, in their office, etc., that it's clear that, you know, that we have a low level of defence at the moment and protection of our undersea infrastructure and given our position on the globe and in terms of the, you know, the amount of the territorial seed that comes within the domain of Ireland, within this state, you know, it's key that we're able to protect that infrastructure. What's there at the moment? Just briefly, I don't want to be abrupt with you, but just try and keep the questions short and the reply short. What's there at the moment? It's just two Navy ships. Is that it? Deputy, I can't comment on the operational situation, but I would say protecting this infrastructure does require a whole-of-government approach. So, it's a naval service. It's the Air Corps. I'm trying to understand. Surely, as the principal officer in the department, you would have a notion of it in terms of what's, you know, what's deployed at the moment. Is it two naval ships at the moment, patrolling the Irish seas? I would certainly say, you know, that the operational capabilities of the naval service at the moment is at a very low level, but I can't comment exactly on what's happening right now. Thanks. And just in terms of, in terms of, to date, you know, what damage, you know, what have there been major incidents where undersea infrastructure has been damaged? Because obviously, it's, you know, it's important that it's protected, you know, internet cables, energy pipelines, you know, undersea cables for electricity, etc. Have there been incidents where that has happened? We can observe incidents in the Baltic Sea that we've been learning from as a country. So, I think what's happening internationally is an opportunity for us here in Ireland. I mean, within Irish territorial waters, has there been damage caused to any undersea infrastructure? I think that's a very broad question, Deputy. I understand, you know, accidental damage can happen. Other incidents, natural hazards, can affect these cables. But I'm not aware specifically of any kind of hybrid actions against infrastructure that I am aware of. The Navy or the Defence Forces haven't brought to the attention of the Department that there has been any damage to date to undersea cables or undersea infrastructure that you're aware of. Well, so the Defence Forces are constantly monitoring, but I'm not aware of any specific hybrid-related incident in Irish waters. Because I'm just trying to, you know, get a picture of where things are at. And just in terms of, you know, and I think, you know, just brought to Irish waters. Yes. Because I'm just trying to, you know, get a picture of where things are at. And just in terms of, you know, and I think, you know, there's broad agreement that what we have is not adequate at the moment. I think that's accepted. Just in terms of the cost of which there will have to be increased spending to, you know, to improve the naval services, to improve the Defence Forces to be able to, you know, monitor and to have the technology, etc. And I'm not in a position to say what technology is required. That's for the Defence Forces and particularly the Navy. But in terms of upskilling the Navy, in terms of new equipment, in terms of putting more ships to sea, etc., what kind of broad figures are for the cost of that over the next five years? Well, I do know from the... So between now and 2030. From the National Development Plan, there's been an allocation of 1.7 billion euros for the Defence Development Plan that goes up to 2030. And that represents quite a significant increase in the last allocation. So that's, I think, a 55% increase. So at the moment, there is a civil military team within my department that's looking at this capability development plan for this. In fact, beyond 2030 up to 2040, to focus on how best to use this money for best effect. And certainly I'm aware that a military radar project is very well advanced and that will include maritime radar. There's also work ongoing to invest in sonar capability for the Naval Service. And this will give ability or capability to our Naval Service to detect objects near cables and pipelines in Irish waters. So these new acquisitions, new capabilities will enhance awareness of what's happening, you know, above and below the surface of the sea and will help the Defence Force to have a wider maritime situation awareness. I would have 1.7 billion increased between now and 2030. I think that 1.7 billion represents a 55% increase on the previous allocation. I think the previous allocation was 1.1 billion, I believe. But I don't specifically work in that area, but that's my understanding. Just in broad terms, what percentage of that would be for this, for the Navy? I would say at the moment, I cannot say at the moment exactly those types of figures, obviously. Surely at this stage, you would have your shopping list drawn up. What's required? I wouldn't say the strategy in developing is a shopping list. I'd say rather it's kind of a roadmap to try to improve maritime security. Is it half that figure? I can't put any percentage figure on it, Deputy. I would say, you know, it's important to be aware as well that many ways of improving maritime security may or may not cost money. For example, improving coordination, developing networks of people working in the maritime security space might be quite low cost, but have a big impact. But obviously, these kind of bigger projects are also needed. And I would also say other departments as well will have a part to play as well. And just in terms of big cost, so if there's, you know, if there's two ships at sea, as I understand it at the moment, or it can be put to sea, you know, I think the expectation is that, you know, you would need another further, three or four. What cost? Because, I mean, surely at this stage, there's conversations happening between the senior officers in the Navy and your department, yourself at principal officer and secretary general level, in terms of the cost of that. I mean, that would be part of the strategy. You're correct. I mean, some of it will be low cost as people networking. Et cetera. And sharing information with other countries as well. But in terms of, in terms of actually hardware, you know, how many, what's the estimate for the number of extra vessels that are required to patrol the extensive territorial waters that we have? I think it's premature for me to comment on that, Deputy, in advance of the strategy being finalised. And I would say that on the Naval side, the military authorities are developing a Naval regeneration plan for the Taunsta, which I know he hopes to receive very shortly, which will help, I think, improve the operational situation for those ships at sea. And in terms of other military and naval hardware required, because what are the other main items that are going to take a sizable part of that budget? So I do know there's a civil military team in my department working in the capability of development space that is actually kind of developing a plan on kind of the most efficient use of this new allocation of funding. But it's, I would say, from my perspective, it's too early to say how much specific funding is going to be kind of allocated for my specific area of work. I was hoping we'd have some shape on that this morning. I understand it has to go before the tarnish to the final plan strategy and agreed. And just finally, can I ask you just about, in terms of interference with internet cables, you know, by other countries, has the Department and the Defence Forces much evidence of that? Because there have been reports in the media at times of other countries interfering with internet connections between Ireland and the state and other countries. My department is working with other government departments to seek solutions at an international level, because the type of activity that you're referring to, Deputy, is not just affecting our countries, it's affecting all across Europe. So that our meetings happen to look at as broad an approach as possible to dealing with this new threat, which can involve, you know, increased information sharing between countries, but also sanctions. But is one of the issues that you're dealing with as part of this strategy, will it be in relation to other countries, you know, and other states, where they are tapping into cables, internet cables, and are able to, you know, intercept messages between governments in this country and governments in other countries, or between business leaders in this country and business leaders in other countries? Because there has been a lot of evidence over the years. Not from far-flown countries, from countries that are close enough to us. Will this form part of the strategy? I'm not aware of that particular issue, Deputy. What we have done is, we have, excuse me. But wouldn't it be a very important issue? Wouldn't it be critical for this state? I mean, every state has to protect its own infrastructure and has to protect its own information systems and security and everything else, and financial, financially and from a security point of view. And what I'm saying to you is, is that if it's not part of the strategy, shouldn't it be part of the strategy? Deputy, I would say that overall maritime security is going to be, there will be different aspects of this strategy, looking at all various different aspects. I think we've identified so far about 13 specific risks that we'll want this strategy to deal with, and quite a number of government departments, not just ourselves, will be involved in cooperating together on dealing with those risks. Much of the infrastructure that you do reference, that you do refer to, is owned and operated by private sector and industry. So I do think it's going to be part of the strategy. It's going to be important to work with them as well. But the strategy is about protecting private, and could I just say to you, Chair, just that, no, I just think that if we're doing a report on this, I just think it's really, really important that, you know, without having people paranoid, without anybody getting paranoid about it, that, you know, that undersea infrastructure communication cables, that one part of this strategy should be about monitoring interference by other countries with internet, particularly internet connections between this state and other states, whether it's private, whether it's private business, or whether it's the business of the state and government. Thank you. Deputy, just to quickly mention, I do think it would be very important for the work of my strategy to also work with those colleagues who are developing, you know, the national cyber security strategy as well. So I think it would be very important for us to work together on that, because cyber security of this information, it absolutely is a vital issue. Thank you.